Apostasy in Islam is not tolerable. Muslims cannot agree to someone being an apostate. I am not asking Muslims to rise and do an Altantuya on those who apostate. I am saying that, whether a Muslim is a turban-wearing kampung man, or a progressive profesional, he is duty-bound to not agree to it.
What I am getting at is that it cannot and must not be made legal. Heck if you talk of human rights, than its a Muslim's right whether he wants to pray or not. No, its not a right, its a duty and so is it a duty for every Muslim to die a Muslim. I don't really take kindly to non-Muslims working their butts off to allow Muslims to apostate. As for those Muslims, the so called progressive ones who are also disappointed with the outcome of the Lina Joy case, its their business. Whether they roast in hell or party in heaven is not for me to say.
What I have just said above is my stand in this matter and as to whether anyone cares what my stand is, what do I care? Strange, when Muslims get slaughtered daily by satanic forces in their very own country, not that many would want to speak out. When a Muslim wants to leave his/her religion many clamour to assist in the name of human rights.
I am no Taliban, a terrorist or even a member of an Islamic party. I am just a simple Muslim who happens to believe that one do not change the contents of the Holy Book in the name of progress or human rights. There is no New Quran and Old Quran. There is only One Quran. I will only listen to the words of another Muslim who has read the Quran cover to cover and understood the Quran. I will not listen to non-Muslims who have read the Quran and gives his version because he obviously reads it to prove that the Quran is wrong and if the Quran is wrong then Islam is wrong. I will not listen to anyone who says the words in the Quran is wrong.
No, I would not be calling for Muslims to rise and destroy all apostates. What happens to them is for the state to decide here on earth and for ALLAH to deal in the here after. Yes, like someone said in a posting somewhere, Lina Joy would still be a Christian. Yes Lina Joy would still be going to church and yes she would still be eating pork. That's her business. The crux of the matter is her actions cannot be made LEGAL whether in the name of human rights or whatever rights.
"A man of principles will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Non-collaboration with evil is a sacred duty!" -- Gandhi
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49 comments:
Hear, hear. Well said and I am in full support chikgu.
apandi,
Thanks and I am sure many muslims share the same sentiments. Kita tak kacau depa, depa jangan la nak over sangat nak tuntut hak kita untuk murtad. Itu bukan kawan, itu jahat namanya.
Right, but another thing to realise is that this sort of thing is also to test the rest of us. To see how we react. Paling tidak pun marah dalam hati...
apandi,
ya betul paling tidak pun marah dalam hati. Orang nak kata tak progressive ka, masih hidup dalam stone age ka itu dia punya pasal.
Betul kata Chegu, itu antara Lina Joy dan Allah. Kita pula perlu menjaga diri kita dan ahli keluarga kita dari api neraka, dan berdoa semoga Iman kita berkekalan dan ditingkatkan dari masa ke semasa. InsyaAllah.
Bro...I'm in line with you and the rest of other commentators... It's a tricky issue...somehow needed a firm stand that it CANNOT be compromised especially in the name of ISLAM. Kita respect depa punya decision nak anut agama apapun. so mintaklah depa pun respect decision agama kita yang tak boleh nak buat main2 ni.
Raden,
Betul tu Raden, yang depa terhegeh-hegeh sangat nak tolong orang Islam murtad tu pasai apa? Bukan ada udang disebalik batu ka? Yang orang Islam pi kata tak pa, biaq pi kat depa tu pasai apa?
Hidup biar lah berprinsip yang selari dengan ajaran agama, tu saja.
Antara yang paling sedap aku baca. Kalau ikut, aku nak bubuh semua dalam Malaysiakita.
Hi... I've been wanting to know how does a muslim feel about this. some of my readers want to heart it to... i accept what you said, for i see a valid point. perhaps i will direct my readers here.
as for penarik beca... hey... dont la bubuh us...
something just came to me... i have a question... how does the quran recognises a muslim? must a person says a prayer, etc etc? for christianity, one is considered a christian after saying the sinners prayer.
so... If there's a certain prayer tat one should say before one is considered a muslim... then did azalina say it?
ok ok... my point is...
is line a muslim by faith? or by the constitution? if it's by the constitution... does the quran recognises it... if the the quran doesnt recognises it... then in essence, she didnt commited apostasy, for she is only a muslim by title... but not by faith...
i hope i am making some sense...
but if lina did first embraced islam... then sorry to her... she is bound the quran and the court is right.
Dearest Zewt
It was not my intention to bubuh you. After all, you are not the guilty party. i have never seen any festival of Islam bashing in your blog. And, i strongly believe i will not.
(i will never use the word dearest just for the purpose of winning you back, Zewt. i write what i mean)
I, publius melayu tak mau blog apa-apa bergubung kes itu, tapi bersetuju memang tugas kita mempertahankan agama dan aqidah.
Zewt,
This matter of equating race and religion is as far as I am concerned is not right. A child is born to the religion of his/her parents at least in many cases. Muslim parents recite certain prayers into the ears of a new born and thus the child is a muslim. It is a grave duty that the parents bear to ensure that the child is taught about Islam. As a Muslim child, the parents are responsible.
This is a tricky situation we have here. By 'no compulsion' it is meant that we don't go kidnap someone and force that person to convert.But in Islam there is a no get out clause. Still it depends on where that person is. In some countries they don't care but fortunately or unfortunately, which ever way you look at it, in this country the majority of the Muslims feels very deeply about this matter.
When someone say that we will lose many possible converts I don't agree. Islam do not want people to come in and test. I give you an example. I have in my house now a Buddhist Siamese girl who is my son's girlfriend. Yes, they intend to get married so I asked her to stay with us, learn what it is to be a Muslim. Then, only then will I ask if she is ready to convert. She must convert for the love of the religion. I will not accept her if she treats Islam as a test and when she finds the curriculum difficult she wants to drop the paper. She has been with us for nearly a year and she is still a Buddhist. She is not ready so I will wait. if in the end she says no then so be it, there is 'no compulsion' here.
As for the constitution, the people of this country back then were mostly uneducated kampung Malays and of course Chinese and Indians. They do not see so far off into the future when they accept the draft. Like it or not, the majority of the people are Malay Muslims and they are thought that apostasy as stated in the Quran is intolerable, It is not tolerated by ALLAH and must not be tolerated by fellow Muslims. Are we then to say oh its a short coming in the Quran. How can I say that my god erred? What I am getting at is that there is such thing as Islamic law and it is incumbent upon a Muslim leader to subject his /her Muslim citizens to Islamic principles and thus the existence of the Syariah Court. When someone goes to say that the Syariah court is subsidiary to the Federal court, or even inferior to the Federal court, how do you think the Muslims would feel. How would a Muslim feel when someone says that the laws and rules prescribed by his god is inferior to the laws and rules made by mortals?
It is not that there is no way out. There is always a way out. Sometimes I feel it is so strange when someone especially non-muslims work very hard to give Muslims the right to leave his religion when his religion forbids it. This must stop. Respect the sensitivities of others. In this case I am not aiming at the non-Muslims only. The Muslims too must learn to respect others and many a time they are guilty. Know what is taboo and what is not. Know what can be openly debated and what can't.
Muslim parents should carry out their duties as Muslim parents so that cases of apostasy are rare or cease. I am not making up stories when I tell you that I myself have been approached by Christians to teach me The Real Religion? This must stop.
I don't like what I said in my post. I dis not say it out of arrogance but out of duty as a Muslim. The rest is up to us.
I am very sorry Zewt if I seemed condescending or preaching coz that is not my real intention. I am just a peace loving Muslim man.
Bakaq,
I am sincere when I say all that I have said. I feel very hurt if in the process I have hurt anyone for that was not my intention. Ada banyak reasonable people out there tapi ada jugak banyak yang insist their interpretation of human rights adalah betul.
I am all for human rights tapi tak ada absolute rights. The moment we have to conform to some sort of behavioral code our rights have eroded.
The solution is everyone must not go overboard. Simple right? Wrong, it is easier said then done that is why we are human, that is why we will destroy this earth one day.
Zabs,
Terima kasih. All I ask for is peace for everyone. I am sure you too feel the same. Some believe that to get peace you must first go to war but I think to get peace you must preach peace which should be easy coz every religion preaches peace. So why all this? Frankly I don't know, maybe its because kita tak ada dalam Matrix yang rule our world. Kita ada dalam real world.
Syabas this is the best commentary that I have read so far on the Lina Joy issue. I am surprised that the non-Muslims and even some muslim commentators have said that the decision of the court is wrong and there is no justice.
This is a clear constitutional issue, the JPN have no right to determine a person's faith, if someone wants to leave Islam he or she must go to the Syariah courts. So why have not Lina Joy followed procedures?
Lina Joy has become too arrogant to want to challenge the constitution and wants to openly declare that she is christian. If she is sincere she should have followed procedure and approached the Syariah court to accept her Murtad. Instead she opted for seven years of court battle in the civil court.
We should also not forget to thank Allahyarham Tan Sri Prof Ahmad Ibrahim who through his efforts in the 90s have made the Syariah court strong and at par with the civil courts. Al-fatehah to him and may Allah reward him for what he has done for Islamic law in this country.
Anyway too much have been said, commented and reported about Lina Joy. Let's stop giving her and christianity any more publicity. That is what the enemies of Islam wants. Instead we should all try to strengthen our iman and educate the people around us - our brothers, sisters, children etc, so that there will not be another Lina Joy. Insha Allah. Ameen.
Mr X,
2 things I would like to touch. The first, The syariah court must have its just standing in this country.
Next, why are there apostasy cases in the first place. It means someone is not doing their job or someone is doing too good a job.
fair enough. if it's the parents' responsibility to ensure the salvation of their children via islam, then i guess lina did embraced islam and is bound by the quran. while a the child should have been given the choice to choose, i believe i should respect that aspect of islam.
i do know the predicament becos such thing also exist in christianity whereby catholics are baptised from birth.
your argument and reasoning is reasonable enough and i acknowledge that.
penarik beca, cool... :)... no worries and i am really glad you change that the title of that blog link. one thing though, the url still states festival of xxx xxx xxx.... but no worries.
cheers to all and may there be peace always.
Zewt,
I am glad I know you and also because of Man Utd.
When a relative leaves our religion, we feel hurt, badly hurt. We dont restrain him/her because we believe in "no compulsion in religion".
When a former Muslim joins our religion on her own free will, it is most proper that we try to protect a member of the flock. I hope you will try to understand this, just as I am trying to understand you.
Tan,
Let me quote something from you.
'it is most proper that we try to protect a member of the flock'.
If a Muslim can welcome and protect a new convert why can't non-Muslims? I agree, I truly agree.
Your interpretation of 'no compulsion goes all the way, ours no. That is our religion and I can't possibly say lets have a re-examination, maybe god got careless, can I? You wouldn't say that your god got careless in certain matters would you?
As I said to zewt, its a tricky situation that we are in now. Having admitted that would I now back off from my stand? I don't expect you to back off either. Lets talk, lets not fight. Let not this chapter be the beginning of something bad.
very politic of lina joy
first she committed murtad and escaped punishments
second, she dares enough to chellange the authority that guards the souverignity of islam
third counts, she manipulated sympathy on the ground of human right and made islam looked bad and rigid
in the actual fact, we all know that lina is liable for punishments for all the wrongdoings and kurangajarness she committed.
on the other notes, i see that it has becoming a growing trends nowdays that many including the non muslims played ulamak and worst played god. many had questioned the rules of islam when which are not into their likings.
this is very dangerous and trust me that the price of overstepping into the boundry is too expensive.
being muslims regardless of your race, we should condone any attempts to disturb the souverignity of islam. as fas as i know, we muslim bloggers never once touched any other religions affairs.
my advise to those busy body learn better your own religion first before asking about other.
From another perspective, Islam is a simple religion which champions moderation, though moderation itself depends on its own perspective.
To become a Muslim is simple, just recite "I bear witness that there is no god ...." but to be a Muslim takes a bit more. Praying five times a day, fasting, etc. Once you are in you cannot get out, well you can actually, at your own peril. Now and in the hereafter. Why is this so ? As simple as it can be, Islam is not to be made a religion of convenience. That is Allah's promise.
However, in this day and age when the end is near, Muslims will be faced with ever greater challenges. To their being, their faith and their livelihood. They will be presented with choices which will all have its own consequences. This case may be one of them. The determination whether they are Islam in name only, ignorant or otherwise. Will you choose heaven or eartly pleasures ? How deep is your belief ? How far do you trust Allah ? How indeed ?
Sorry, terleter sikit chikgu...
kata tak nak...nice piece. Few bloggers have put out post on Lina Joy after the verdict.I have said it all at Liz Wong's blog and just want to say this to you..that if every muslim thinks like you...Malaysian will be progressive and surely Vision2020 will be achieved.
Unfortunately...small groups of Taliban type of Muslims are giving their narrow minded version..just the opposite of yours.
Like all religions...and Islam is truly great...there will be their followers spoiling the greatness...not need others to destroy it.
On Lina Joy's case..I and many others have voiced against the verdict...and all readers can read from all blogs to make their wise conclusions.
Race and religion dirty politics have been controlling the minds of voters far too long and I conclude..the fair Constitution made by wise leaders 50 years ago is out-dated and now is unfair...thus it is up to the government of the day ...to review and up-date it. Laws are made by men. their are just and unjust laws...so said Gandhi....and we must be brave to change the unjust laws.
So far..not one is brave enough to correct it. It's sad...race and religion seems to be how UMNO wants to manage the country continuously.
But I have faith majority voters do not want this anymore. Lets see coming election.
Dalam apa hal jua sekalipun, kita harus bertindak dan berfikiran dari sudut ilmu.
Teliti betul-betul dari sudut ilmiah akan isu murtad. Apa benar orang murtad hukumannya bunuh? Adakah kesemua orang yang murtad itu hukumannya bunuh? Jika kita tidak tahu, bertanyalah dengan yang tahu.
Setahu saya (dan saya mungkin salah dan saya bersedia diperbetulkan dengan hujah, nas dan dalil), orang yang murtad, jika dia tidak mencaci agama Islam setelah dia murtad, kita tidak boleh menghukumnya apa-apa. Lagipun siapa kita untuk menentukan iman di hatinya? Apakah sudah tertutup pintu taubat untuk orang yang murtad? Apakah kesedaran dan hidayah itu mesti dipaksa? Tidak boleh tidak mesti terima sekarang tiada tolak ansur?Lihat kembali bagaimana berat sebelahnya perjanjian Hudaibiyah (buku sejarah sekolah menengah cuma, saya SPM agama Islam cuma agregat 5), bagaimana jika orang Islam murtad dibiarkan saja, tapi orang kafir Mekah yang memeluk Islam, harus dikembalikan ke Mekah (untuk dibantai dan disiksa oleh Kafir Mekah tentunya). Tapi Perjanjian Hudaibiyah ini telah menjadikan Islam kelihatan amat molek kepada orang lain kerana sikap toleransinya.
Sebab itu Islam ini, harus dipelajari dari tiga sudut, Tauhid, Fekah dan Tasawuf. Tasawuf mengajar kita Tuhan kita itu rupanya bukan Tuhan kita saja, tapi Tuhan sekalian alam. Sufi mengajar kita hidayah itu, iman itu, bukan boleh dipaksa atau ditelaah dan diberi sijil. Ianya datang secara tiba-tiba.
Tugas kita ialah menyedarkan orang, memberi ilmu, bab orang terima, orang sedar, itu adalah hak ALLAH. Orang tak terima, orang tak suka, kita tak perlu gusar dan khuatir.
Dan ALLAH lebih mengetahui. Dan ALLAH lebih mengetahui. Dan ALLAH lebih mengetahui.
Tambahan:
Saya bersetuju dengan Abdul Jalil Backer (disini: http://www.mykmu.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5879) yang mengatakan ini bukan isu kebebasan agama, tapi lebih kepada isu kenapa Lina Joy tidak memohon ke Mahkamah Syariah untuk menukar agamanya. Sedangkan sudah banyak kes menukar agama yang diluluskan oleh Mahkamah Syariah (cuma kita tidak diberitahu jumlahnya untuk kemaslahatan umum).
Hi,
just curious here. what exactly can u do to a person if he/she doesn't want to practice a religion and be known as a person of that religion.
What the court did was to ensure Lina Joy remained a Muslim legally. But then religion and faith is a matter for the mind, conscience and soul. So Lina is in effect, a Muslim by birth and law,
but a Christian by current practice.
She can't change that fact in this country, and neither can any other Malay persons.
I understand the sensitivity of this topic and I hope I haven't offended anyone here.
I don't think the matter is closed. And I personally think faith is between each of us and God.
God Bless..
Galadriel,
Thanks. I am not saying that Lina is a Muslim. She has made that clear. I can only not approve of her actions. No I am not going to go out and murder her. I know you are not insinuating that too. Then it is the decision of the Syariah court to which she must first apply. They must make their decisions based on their interpretation of the Quran. Their supreme leader, be it the Sultan or the Agong and if these are puppets only, then the advisers to these people carry a very heavy responsibility in interpreting the matter.
Let me guess. You would then ask, what if the Syariah court agrees to her application. As far as I am concerned that is the end of the matter though I do not agree with it. Would others take it the way I have? I can't guarantee you they would. When they (the muslims) go out denouncing the Syariah courts action wouldn't there be people (the non-muslims) calling them uncivilised barbarians? Can you guarantee there wouldn't?
What if the Syariah court denies her application? Wouldn't that invite criticisms from another quarter then? Wouldn't this then invite stupid statements like 'if you don't like this country then get out'? It has happened before has it not?
Sadly, I have no answer. I merely stated that as a Muslim I am against apostasy being made legal. I am not saying that those who apostate must be killed.
By the way, I am not offended by your questions for I see the merit in it. I am sure if questions could be put forth by both sides, we could avoid a lot of tension.
Sorry if I have not furnished you with what you actually wanted.
If people want to murtad, lantak dia lah, what threat is it to Islam?
One murtad, a 100 embrace.
Hi, I'm curious how you (and other Muslims) would view the situation if things were reversed. Say we are in some hypothetical country where majority of the people profess religion A, and Lina Joy wants to convert from religion A to Islam. But religion A forbids apostasy. The country is very much like Malaysia, most people are of religion A, but there's a good number who are Muslim, Christian, etc. The country claims freedom of religion for everyone. But at the same time, for the sake of the majority (of religion A), there is a dual court system much like in Malaysia. What then? Should Lina Joy be allowed freedom to convert from Religion A to Islam? Or not?
Btw, I realize this is a sensitive issue, and I'm not trying to offend anyone. I believe this is a neutral enough question. But I am curious to see how you would view the above situation.
So if a person cannot change his/her religion legally, then it's ok to be a hypocritical pseudo moslem, and it is perfectly acceptable by the moslem majority * better to be a hypocrite, than a true moslem believer, mmmmmm * that tells me a lot about moslems in general.
Salam to che'gu:
Aku pun memang tak muleh faham awat orang yg mengaku Islam tetapi dok pulun nak tulong orang Islam lain jadi murtad.Mungkin depa boleh jadi famous seantero dunia sebab dunia luar dok kipas dan support depa.
Bagi aku hak asasi manusia adalah terhadap keadilan kepimpinan,urusan ekonomi sejagat. But when it comes to faith/iman...hak insan itu hanya kepada ALLAH. bagi penganut ugama lain terhadap ugama masing-masing.
Quran dengan jelas menempelak perbuatan murtad.
Kalau ikut qias aku, orang yg menolong orang lain menjadi murtad mereka juga telah murtad.Pasai apa aku kata lagu tu?
Kalau bab arak pun sesiapa yg terbabit dalam urusan arak( dari pekerja kilang,pak guard,drebar lori arak,pelayan serve arak dan tokey bar nightclub juga sudah di kira macam peminum arak, apalagi perbuatan murtad.
You did a nice write up here che'gu.TQ very much. That was my feeling too tapi tak reti nak tulih sangat.You've got a friend dalam hal-hal macam ni.
Kirim salam kat mem noo...
Chegu said,"Whether they roast in hell or party in heaven is not for me to say."
First off Chegu NK, salaam and I share your joy on the recent success of your wife's operation. Alhamdullillah...
Chegu, I must say this is the best - bar none - commentary that I've come across in the local blogosphere. Yours is certainly a voice of reason, and cooler heads like yours MUST prevail. Needless to say I agree, because only YOU Chegu could put this across so much better, especially at the sensitivity of the subject and without offending our non-Muslim friends.
But Chegu,I share Bakaq Haq's snetiment.. can't you send it to the NST or Star to have it published and shared amongst the populace? For the greater good? This piece is imoprtant and deserve a wider audience, Chegu. Bakaq! Alert RPK please!
Kita tidak boleh biarkan orang yang tidak faham dengan Islam mengunakan peluang sebegini untuk memperlekehkan Islam dan cara Islam ditadbir untuk umat Islam dalam negeri ini, dengan mengunakan nilai nilai sejagat yang mudah sangat menarik perhatian dunia. Kemudian pentadbir Islam dalam negara ini akan dipertontonkan sebagai golongan yang zalim, kolot dan mengekang kemajuan dan perubahan masyarakat.
Masalah kompleks itu tidak boleh dirungkai sebegitu mudah mengunakan selesaian simplistik.
Semoga Allah s.w.t. memberikan mereka yang memperjuangkan kebenaran mempertahankan maruah agama Allah ini dengan segala kekuatan, kebijaksanaan dan ketabahan mengharungi cabaran yang makin meningkat ini.
InsyaAllah
anon,(10.45am)
My frank and honest opinion, yes the situation would be as it is now and then in the net there will be a lot of religion A bashing as it is now. I never for once said that it is easy. I did say that it is tricky and potentially messy and it is already messy as it is now.
Then the remedy as should the remedy be here is for the religious court of religion A in that country to deal with the matter after which there will be another round of problems coz the religious court of religion A would be accused if being unfair as would the case be here if the Syariah court were to interprete it according to the teachings of Islam.
As to anon (11.08)
I don't have to answer you. You are pathetic.
ahm,
I fail to understand Lina Joy's motives. What I think her motives are is better left not said coz it might invite unneccesary debate.
Apandi,
'Islam is not to be made a religion of convenience. That is Allah's promise'. Kata2 yang you petik ini sangat mendalam maksudnya sebab ramai sekarang menganggap Islam sebagai vehicle.
Doc,
Betul tu doc, kalau yang nak tolong orang Islam tu murtad, tu memang kerja dia tapi bila orang Islam sendiri bertungkus lumus, saya tak tau apa nak kata lagi la.
Mat,
Thanks for being supportive.Begini la Mat, 'Aku menulis bukan kerna nama'
Hey Biggum,
Nice blog your daughter got there. Saya setuju dengan saudara
'Masalah kompleks itu tidak boleh dirungkai sebegitu mudah mengunakan selesaian simplistik'
Kalau takdak apostasy, tak ada masalah. Kalau takdak overzealous punya orang nak pi cari converts seolah2 dia dapat commission kerna dapat converts takdak masalah. Kalau orang Islam cukup kuat Iman tak ada apostasy dan tak ada masalah.
Lina Joy wanted to drop the word Islam from her IC. But really, was that even necessary? Why would she want to care about what was written on a piece of plastic? If she didn't believe in Islam, did it make any difference what was stated in her IC? I can't help to think she has an underlying motive in bringing up this issue, if she wants to marry a non-muslim then go ahead. I'm sure the law pertinent to Church and Christian marriages can be amended by the top priests or whoever that is in charge of the Christians welfare in Malaysia so much easily to legalize the marriage. I think she knew right from the start that she would lose the appeal, she just wanted those who do not even have a proper grasp of Islam to question certain matters regarding the punishment for apostasy, to question irrelevant matters like why many Muslims do not abide by the Islamic rules (though I also see many Christians don't abide by Christian rules). This is irrelevant. Many Muslims have adhered strictly to the rules and why do you commentators who question the matter forget this?
Respect is mutual, and if you think that respect had not been given to Lina Joy regarding her religion conversion, ask Lina Joy if she even respect the fact that her parents are Muslim who would feel insulted had she won her appeal, and there are millions of Muslim who would have felt insulted too if she had won her appeal.
No, we don't want Lina Joy back. We don't want anyone whose faith had bent despite her being educated well in Islamic religion yet chose to leave. She is already an apostate, and she has made that known. Yet, I am still curious why she haven't shown herself publicly. If she is really sincere about her decision to make her conversion public, then why did she have the audacity to challenge a matter of her religion status on her IC in a civil court yet he has so little balls to show her face?
Something stinks and that's her intention, or whoever/whatever that is behind her. All of you who has little authority to speak of Islam because you haven't enough knowledge about Islam in the first place, don't attack the religion.
hej!
what a good comment on the issue. i agreed with what you have written and the best so far. agreed with ahm, mr x & chocobo comments too. sad to read some comments on this issue in other blogs which written by some muslims or so called 'moderate muslims' and non-muslims who are championing human right as the basis of the issue. there's no such term of moderate or fundamentalist muslim when it comes to fight your religion! ISLAM has to be paramount to whatever human made laws and could not be tagged along with human right...because as a moslem, the human right is bound to the CREATOR, bound to your parents, your siblings, your kins, your spouse, your children, your brothers and sisters in Islam, your neigbours - muslims and non-muslims, and all the GOD's creations. ISLAM will be attacked from all corners and this is what will happen till the doomsday...may ALLAH give us strenght to fight for our faith.
Chocobo said:
her IC? I can't help to think she has an underlying motive in bringing up this issue, if she wants to marry a non-muslim then go ahead. I'm sure the law pertinent to Church and Christian marriages can be amended by the top priests or whoever that is in charge of the Christians welfare in Malaysia so much easily to legalize the marriage. I thin
My comment:
Hi, as a Christian, I would like to comment on Chocobo's comment above. As far as the Christian church is concerned, it is perfectly OK for Lina Joy and her partner to marry with or without the ammendment to her IC.
For Christians, we don't have a set legal rules as the Muslims. We definitely have strict principles and teachings that we follow (which sadly, some Christians don't), but we don't have a Christian court, or Christian police etc. like the Muslims. (But of course, this does not mean we are free to do whatever we want. Rather, we are guided by our conscience and of course, by God Himself.)
So, going back to the point at hand, if a Christian wants to marry a non-Christian, though that is not encouraged, it is not illegal by law.
The problem that Lina Joy is facing is that the current legal system in Malaysia (and NOT the Christian church) does not allow her to marry a non-Muslim because she is still "officially" a Muslim. Though she can marry anyway without registering her marriage, but if she does that, problems will arise when she has to register her children and when dealing with issues of custody, inheritance, burial etc. Further, she is vulnerable to be convicted of khalwat according to Syariah law (remember, she's still officially a Muslim) for being with a man who's not a husband.
I hope this helps to clear matters up a little bit. Thanks for giving me this space to put in my bit.
Anon (10.30)
I fully understood what you have said and I appreciated that you are being very civil about it. To correct you, there is no Muslim police force here in this country and I don't think there is any anywhere else.
I am sure Christians too have a set of behavioural code. I do not know if you have translated them into Christian rules. You see we Muslims have a behavioural code which is translated or manisfested into Islamic rules. Should there be a compulsion anywhere it is for a Muslim to adhere to these rules.
These rules also cover rulers, in this case the government. Being Muslims they have to abide and by being rulers comes heavy responsibilities one being the sanctity of the religion.
Since the code is manifested into laws then the next obvious thing is the Syariah court. Matters pertaining to Islam must be brought to the Syariah court. Like I said before the Syariah court MUST preside over everything pertaining to Islam based on the Quran and Hadith. If the Syariah Court had in the past deliberated in cases pertaining to apostasy and concluded to the dissatisfaction of the one who apostates, they did so based on the teachings of Islam and what is in the Quran. They cannot base a ruling based on changing times. Times change but religious teachings don't. I hope I make sense. I don't want to go too deep first because I am not actually an authority in this matter and 2nd because it might not be pleasant.
Dear anonymous.
Having said that, the post-marital problems of marrying someone who is not of your own religion, as you have stated, might in the future cause hassles that are related to custody, burial, and even school registration for her future children.
First of all, looking at the situation in Malaysia, she must have been utterly naive by thinking that challenging a matter of her religion status would be fruitful. When you are going against the flow, do you expect the current of the flow to be reversed to make things easy for you to get through? You should know better not to. The problems that might arise are predictable, but to expect something like that to be allowed freely in this country where the majority of citizens are Muslims who, clearly, from the start, would not have allowed her to be recognized as a Christian Malay, what made she think it could happen?
She knew the outcome right from the start. People have died to fight for what they believe in. And out there, there are Muslims who have been discriminated against just to practice what they believe in. As example, in France, 'tudung' is not allowed to be worn in public school by Muslim girls. But, is it the smartest thing to do to bring the matter to court so that you can practice what you believe in easily? And would a set of rules restrict you?
A true Islam believer would still wear the Tudung, and be ready to face the consequences. If a girl decides to wear the 'tudung' despite the rules, she would be thrown out of school. But the question is, would that be a hindrance for her to be educated? The answer is no. That's what alternatives are for. Despite anything, you believe in what you believe in. Why did she limit her imagination by thinking of only the hardships and why would that hinder her?
Don’t speak of rights and justice if you don’t have the gall to face hardships. If you have the audacity to face the court, you should have the audacity to face the fact that you’ve failed. You choose to go against the flow, then don’t expect the flow to go your direction. And furthermore, the Syariah law is only liable to Muslims. After this case, all she has to do is show her IC to any Pegawai Pencegah Maksiat and would you think that knowing she is ‘Norazlina Jelani’ who has converted to Christian and make that public; she would still be prosecuted for ‘khalwat’?
Then you’re just being afraid of nonexistent things. Islam is understanding and is not as narrow as the non-muslims would make it.
Thanks for giving me the chance to make my say.
Thanks Kata Tak Nak for your reply to my earlier post (anon 10.30). Thanks for the correction that there is no Muslim police. I was referering to the Religious Department (I'm not sure what's the right term for it.. i think it's JAIS or something like that) that we've been reading about in the papers recently that raid hotel rooms to find those guilty of khalwat etc. Sorry if I used the wrong terminology, and if my understanding of their role is mistaken.
And yes, I definitely agree with you that religious teachings don't change with time. It's the same with Christianity. Teachings and principles in the Bible apply today as much as they applied many hundreds of years ago.
As for Chocobo's response to my comment. Yes, you are right that it is difficult when going against the flow. It is a very difficult situation for Lina Joy. But she's not naive as you think she is. She knows well the consequences. She is just trying to fight for her own freedom. Just like those Muslims that you mentioned who face discrimination for their beliefs, Lina Joy is now facing discrimination for her beliefs.
Like Kata Tak Nak said in one of his earlier posts, this is not a simple problem. There is no easy answer... and maybe even no answer.
Dear anonymous;
For Lina Joy to have taken such action was to fight for her freedom. That's too obvious now, isn't it? But the method she used to fight for it is just equal to undertaking an exercise in futility. The girls who wore their 'tudung' instead of the restrictions by the France authorities were expelled. But did they bring to fight for their right in court? No, they didn't. What they did was opting for alternative education. That's how it is, you can't expect a country to change just to make you at ease. You wanna talk about freedom? We didn't only have that case in France. Take a look at Palestine where the citizens can't live through a day without the sound of bullets shooting or blood splattering. And there is no way that any court on earth would be able to stop the war there. So, did the Palestinians whine about it? Did they fight over their right in court? No, they just continue living, and they practice what they believe in. That's the way it is, just do, or die. Lina Joy can just stop whining, she has made her decision (however against the flow it is) now live with it, just as how the Muslim girls in France are still wearing their 'tudung' and accepted for thmselves to be expelled from school.
That's what honor is.
KTN,
Sadly, some, even amongst the most educated born muslims, tend to believe the 'Ripley's Believe It Or Not' MORE than the teachings of Al-Quran itself. Hence, the difference between education and knowledge, knowledge and understanding, understanding and faith.
"Mereka hendak memperdayakan Allah dan orang-orang beriman, padahal mereka hanya memperdaya diri sendiri, sedang mereka tidak menyedarinya" ( al-baqarah:9)
WaAllahualam ...
ibu,
You're right. Education is supposed to open up the mind thats why its important in Islam but to some education makes them lose their bearings.
You are sooo right in what you say chocobo! Saya dah rasa tak tahan bila orang bukan Islam sewenang-wenangnya mencaci-maki agama Islam. Bukan kebebasan beragama yang dicari oleh Lina Joy dan kumpulan penyokongnya-ada niat busuk disebaliknya. Orang-orang Islam mesti sedar,jangan ikut emosi nak bunuh sana-sini,Islam adalah rahmatan lil-alamin,ajaranya bukanlah untuk mementingkan(ego) diri sendiri,golongan sendiri,ajarannya adalah untuk mencurahkan kasih-sayang,keselamatan dan kedamaian kepada seisi alam semesta.Lina Joy sudah pun murtad dan ramai yang mempergunakan dia untuk kepentingan dan agenda yang lebih besar.Mereka cuba mencabar Islam sebenarnya dan sejak zaman rasulullah s.a.w. lagi perkara begini telah berlaku.
Hi, Kata Tak Nak…
I’m just an observer of this post and some of your reader’s comments caught my attention. As no one actually pointed out these, please allow me to do so. I’m not here to give theological debate but I am going to point things out with common sense. My Muslim friends told me this before, “God gave us a brain to think, to be able to judge the good and the bad in this world.” So, why don’t we analyst these comments with openness and common sense, okay???
Anyway too much have been said, commented and reported about Lina Joy. Let's stop giving her and christianity any more publicity. That is what the enemies of Islam wants. Instead we should all try to strengthen our iman and educate the people around us - our brothers, sisters, children etc, so that there will not be another Lina Joy. Insha Allah. Ameen.
- Mr. X (01 June 2007 21:17)-
Mr. X,
I’m not here to be biased or whatever you might think (sorry if I’m defensive but I need to make myself VERY clear that I am not here for a fight) You said too much has been said, commented and reported about the Lina Joy case; and wish to stop giving her and Christianity anymore publicity because you alleged that it is what the enemies of Islam wants. However, ARE you sure whether or not that is what the enemies want??
I would like to point out that by having people to comment and report about the Lina Joy case, it is a good and constructive way for people to voice their opinions about the Constitutional law that we have been using for the past 50:44 years since our Independence, as we never got a chance to actually sit down and think about the current Constitutional Law that we have been using for the past 50:44 years. I’m not spreading propaganda here but my honest opinion about it. Why 50:44?? 50 years for the Peninsular and 44 years for Sabah and Sarawak. I want to ask you also, do you think Lina Joy and the Christian community wish to be in the public spotlight??? They are peace-loving people too and will only rise to the occasion if they are challenged. By chance, you comment can spark that because you have indirectly called them enemies of Islam. Look at your comment carefully and put yourself into another person’s shoe. We want to maintain a society that is sensitive to another’s religion; therefore, that is not a correct conduct. Instead of trying to strengthen your Iman which will be for your own benefit, why don’t YOU give them a more proper understanding of Islam to the people? You can’t avoid another Lina Joy case unless you can do that.
very politic of lina joy
first she committed murtad and escaped punishments
second, she dares enough to chellange the authority that guards the souverignity of islam
third counts, she manipulated sympathy on the ground of human right and made islam looked bad and rigid
in the actual fact, we all know that lina is liable for punishments for all the wrongdoings and kurangajarness she committed.
- ahm(01 June 2007 23:07)-
Ahm,
What do you mean that it is very politic of Lina Joy that she committed murtad and escaped punishment?? I don’t see any political connections between wanting to convert. Also, punishment for wanting to convert?! Don’t you think that is too much?? To convert is one thing but to punish a person for converting IS against the grounds of Human Rights because it is stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) in article 18; where by Everyone has the RIGHT to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, which includes freedom to change his/her religion of belief, and freedom, either alone or in a community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance. If you want to punish someone for converting, you would have already committed a crime in the PEOPLES eyes and in God’s eye! Why am I bringing in God? This is because you and I believe that God is a loving God who loves all His Children and I don’t think God would want us to hurt each other. Your accusation that she made Islam look bad and rigid.. Well.. I beg to differ because the talks of wanting to punish her and all IS the main contributing factor on WHY Islam is looked upon a bad light and considered rigid by people. So, instead of accusing her of making Islam look bad, don’t you think you should reflect on it yourself first? Therefore, in actual fact, Lina is NOT to be held liable for punishments for the “wrongdoings” and “kurangajarness” you alleged she committed. It is people who judge people based on their actions that goes against the norm; who are supposed to be held liable. Don’t you think so??
Then you’re just being afraid of nonexistent things. Islam is understanding and is not as narrow as the non-muslims would make it
- Chocobo (03 June 2007 13:55) -
Chocobo,
When you said that she was afraid of nonexistent things; do you think she, being already made aware that her struggles will be a tough one, not be afraid? There are a lot of things to be put into thoughts. I.e. her family, her friends and all will shun her for her daring act. Did she falter?? No! So, instead of condemning her, she should be praised because she is doing something she believes is right in her context. As to the understanding of Islam by the non-Muslims, we all know that Islam is an understanding religion and we are not narrow as you make it. We all grew up in Malaysia, my friend, with friends from all the races and religions. Don’t you think we would have perfect understanding of Islam by now?? Not forgetting also that we have the Education System (History) to learn about Islam?? It may be a basic one but it is enough to know that Islam is an understanding religion. If you think that people’s understanding is wrong, then instead of sitting down and commenting about it, maybe you can reach out to people so that they will have a proper understanding. Why not, I am thinking…
You are sooo right in what you say chocobo! Saya dah rasa tak tahan bila orang bukan Islam sewenang-wenangnya mencaci-maki agama Islam. Bukan kebebasan beragama yang dicari oleh Lina Joy dan kumpulan penyokongnya-ada niat busuk disebaliknya. Orang-orang Islam mesti sedar,jangan ikut emosi nak bunuh sana-sini,Islam adalah rahmatan lil-alamin,ajaranya bukanlah untuk mementingkan(ego) diri sendiri,golongan sendiri,ajarannya adalah untuk mencurahkan kasih-sayang,keselamatan dan kedamaian kepada seisi alam semesta.Lina Joy sudah pun murtad dan ramai yang mempergunakan dia untuk kepentingan dan agenda yang lebih besar.Mereka cuba mencabar Islam sebenarnya dan sejak zaman rasulullah s.a.w. lagi perkara begini telah berlaku.
- safia tajul alam (13 June 2007 23:38)-
Safia,
One fact you have to accept whether you like it or not, that THERE will always be people looking at another religion in a bad light. It’s a sad fact that we cannot avoid. I have to point out that is VERY bad conduct to speculate that what Lina Joy and her supporters have bad intentions when all they say is, let her change the religion that is stated in her Identification Card. It is good that you are saying not to simply kill but speculating that her group has another agenda is not nice because you will sow seeds that might cause mistrust among the religion. They are not challenging Islam actually but simply saying, “Let her change her identity.” As simple as that because it is NOT her identity as she is no longer a Muslim. So, why let the Islam be left in her Identification Card??? Do I make sense to you?? I hope I do because the Non- Muslim is not taking sides with anyone based on religion but we see things based on logical reasoning. You say there that Islam is to bring love, security and peace to the whole world but by speculating, are you helping to bring peace to the world or sowing seeds of distend among the people of Malaysia???
Kata Tak Nak, Safia, Chocobo, Ahm and Mr. X,
I don’t mean to sound preachy or whatever but these is my 2 cents worth. If you disagree with my points, which you have every right to, please feel free to voice your opinion. However, I would hope that next time if there are comments to be made, the religious believes of the other readers should be taken care of. It’s a 2 way thing. You respect other people’s religion, we will respect yours back. I know you guys are wise enough to know that because I believe you all to be VERY, VERY, VERY much older than me and therefore should be the shining example to the youngsters today.
Thank you for the space here, Kata Tak Nak. Sorry I used up a lot of space. :D
Dear Fairy Spring,
Thanks for coming over to my blog and to comment on this matter albeit a little bit late.
My point is very clear on this issue.
Let's say if Christianity forbids apostasy and it is clearly stated in the bible that it forbids so and if Christianity also demand upon Christians to not accept apostasy and to fight it what would your stand be on someone who apostates then? That was why I said that it must not be made legal. I say it through the perspective of a Muslim who understands the demands of my religion. Do those people who question this realise that they are insinuating that something is wrong with Islam.
Who is it the come out with this Human Rights Charter anyway? Are they Muslims or mainly Christians? One think for sure is that they are secular in thinking.
Please bear in mind that Islam is Ad Din meaning a way of life, meaning secularism is frowned upon.
We Muslims would go along with the charter as long as it runs parallel with the teachings of Islam. The moment it diverges, so do we.
A Muslim is taught to be tolerant so as a Christian, but the moment something happens that is against the teachings of Islam, the tolerance stops there. Are you insinuating this is wrong? If it is wrong then Islam can't be a TRUE religion for a TRUE religion can never be wrong. When people start to insinuate that Islam is not a TRUE religion, no TRUE Muslim can, should and must take it for it is encumbered upon him to adhere the true teachings.
If you choose to read also the comments made by Ultra Christians in various blogs and websites, then you may understand why some Ultra Muslims made theirs.
I do not want to go further though I have much more to say about it but if you had fully understood my posting then you would know that as a MUSLIM I cannot and must not condone apostasy, thus my call for it to not be made legal. I never called for her life to be taken though some of my Muslim brethrens did. That is up to God.
All I can say is that I agree with the decision of the Syariah Court because that is the only conclusion they could come to base on the Quran. The Civil court, to the Muslim, is secondary, not the Primary court of law in his/her country.
I may not have explained myself fully here since I am not a good writer who is persuasive with my use of words but I hope at least you understood the gist of what I am trying to say.
I only replied because it is the Muslim think as much as it is the Christian thing to do when a guest comes knocking. This matter has now cooled off as far as I am concern and I don't really wish to talk about it further coz it will not change things. You are welcome though to reply but I do not guarantee a response. One thing though is that I will not allow my blog to be made a battleground by both Muslims and Christians. I only allowed the comments you see here because I think that all of them including yours are quite civil in nature unlike in some Muslim and also Christian oriented blogs and websites. Its 6 in the morning and I am quite sleepy, so good night or should I say good morning and thanks for commenting rather civilly.
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